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Conversation between a Non-theist and a theist about the after-life, the existence of God and the veracity of the Bible


The original question was posted on an online internet and was about philosophy of theism on 23.2.2010. For simplicity, signatures and other formatting was omitted.

Ernie

I don't whine about them, but I know without Jesus, they will go to hell for all eternity

Non-theist

Hi, you said "I don't whine about them, but I know without Jesus, they will go to hell for all eternity"

Do you think that if you don't believe Jesus was God and died for your sins that you will go to hell?

Ernie

Yes, because this is what God said in the bible. Google 23 minutes in hell, and download the MP3 file and listen to it. You may not believe it, but the verses he references are in the bible. This life doesn't end at death, and unless someone is severely mentally ill, they will be responsible for their decision for Jesus: either accept Him, or reject Him, but a choice has to be made.

Non-theist

Ok. Thanks for explaining that. But how do you know that the Bible was authored by God? And how do you know Bill Wiese was not dreaming when he had that vision of hell?

Why do you think God sends people to hell?

In the Bible, Jesus talk about demons. Do you think demons exist? If yes, why do you think it is so hard for humans to see them? Do you think they are somehow hiding?

Thank you again

Ernie

First, God's word is truth ( John 17:17 ), and until you study it and settle this in your heart, you can't believe further. Even if he was dreaming ( which I seriously doubt ), the scriptures he gave reference to are in the bible. I wouldn't want to die and find out if he was telling the truth, because then it is too late. God does not send anyone to hell, because it is His will that mankind repents, and receives His Son Jesus into their hearts ( 2 Peter 3:9 and Romans 10:9-10 ). Demons are real, but they are spirits, and can only be seen if they choose to manifest. Angels and demons are around us all the time, because they have assignments to carry out. The spirit realm is more real than our natural realm, but we have natural eyes, which see natural things. Angels and demons are part of the supernatural realm.

Non-theist

Hello,

Thanks a lot again for your reply.

John 17:17 does say that Jesus's word is the truth, yes, but John 17:17 is still part of the Bible. Are there any other ways of verifying that Jesus really was divinely inspired from God and that the other parts of the Bible really are inspired from God? In other words, are there any ways to verify that the authors of the Bible really were in contact with God and that the Bible contains God's message/God's words?

If I may, I would like to quote another passage from the Bible.

Exodus 20:2-6 (New International Version)

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

In this passage, God states that you must not have any other Gods. Hindus worship Vishnu and Muslims worship Allah. Do you think that Hindus and Muslims will go to hell?

Best

Ernie

I can say this: there was an atheist named Lee Strobel, who went on a 2 year study to try and disprove the bible, especially the resurrection of Jesus. He researched the greatest scholars of bible study, including some Jewish rabbis. At the end of the 2 years, the evidence was overwhelming, and his final conclusion was that Jesus was exactly what He ( and historical records ) proved He was, the risen Messiah. You can google his name, and he made a DVD called the Case for Christ, which documents all the research he did. Now, when you worship either Jesus or the Holy Spirit, you are still worshiping the 1 true God, because they are as much God as the Father is. This truth cannot be understood by the natural mind, just as much as eternity cannot. Throughout the bible Jesus never rejected worship, and even forgave sins ( which only God can do ). The Godhead is a true, bible doctrine, but can only be understood by Christians, and only by revelation from the Holy Spirit ( John 16:13-15 ). Now, Hindus and Muslims, as well as all false religions, will go to hell because they reject Jesus as their Lord and Savior. If they turn from their false religion, and accept Jesus into their heart at any time, then they will go to heaven, because then they will be Christians ( John 14:6 and Romans 10:9-10 ). Jesus is clearly God ( John 1:1 and Isaiah 9:6 ), and that is why salvation can come through Him, because He shed His blood for all mankind. Salvation is through Him only ( Acts 4:12 ).

Non-theist

Hi,

Thank you again for replying.

I will look into the documentary by Lee Strobel called the case for Christ. However, do you know that Mr. Strobel is viewed as a scientific illiterate by the scientific community?

Do you feel sorry for the Muslims and Hindus who are going to hell?

Cheers

Ernie

Yes I do feel compassion for the Muslims and Hindus ( and all other false religions ) that are heading towards hell, because eternity has no end. They will get to make a choice in their lifetime, but it all depends on what choice they make before death.

Non-theist

Hi,

So what happens if you have never heard about the Gospel or even Christianity. Do you go to hell?

What happens to you when you are in hell? Is it eternal torture? What if there are some good Hindus that are nice but they still believe in Vishnu, the Hindu God, then does God still send them to hell?

Cheers,

Ernie

God said creation is proof of His existence, and whoever does not hear about God still has His evidence ( see Romans 1:19-20 ). Plenty of so-called good people ( even Hindus ) will be in hell, because they chose the lie of Satan over the truth. God is the only standard of good, not other men/women. Compared to God, all people are sinful and need His Son Jesus as their Lord and Savior, because He alone paid the price for our salvation ( Vishnu did not ). Jesus is available to anyone who will call upon the name of the Lord ( Romans 10:9-10,13 ). If you have not seen and heard this link, please do, it may change your view about hell and Jesus - http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuyrm0oxLLSUB5qlXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzOGp0c3A2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA0Y2NjZfMTEw/SIG=12t3c7205/EXP=1267606630/**http%3a//www.spiritlessons.com/Documents/BillWiese_23MinutesInHell_Text.htm

Non-theist

Hi,

Thanks for your prompt reply. Humans have been on the Earth for 100,000 years though and Jesus only came 2000 years ago. So for 98,000 years, they only had evidence of God but not Jesus. How could they have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour then?

Cheers

Ernie

From what I understand, man has been around about 6000 years, even though the earth is much older. Before Jesus, man was counted righteous when He obeyed God, like Abraham did when he offered his son. God didn't let him kill his son, but his act of faith made him righteous in God's eyes. Also, those who sought God were counted righteous because they put their trust in Him. When Jesus came, He redeemed all who trusted in the Lord, when Jesus shed His blood for all mankind. They didn't know about Jesus, but believed the promise God had told them. See Hebrews 11, which is called the hall of faith.

Non-theist

Hi,

No, humans have been around for at least 100000 yr. See:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/312/5781/1785

And life has been here at least 3 billion yr. See

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v463/n7283/full/nature08793.html

There are many, many more scientific publications with verifiable empirical evidence which corroborate both of these claims.

But before Jesus, men outside the ancient Hebrews' community had no way of knowing of God because God had only revealed himself to the the ancient Hebrews. So how did they know about God? Did God expect them to believe in him by the natural structure of the Earth alone and nothing else? So the ancient Greeks who believed in the Olympian Gods and the ancient Egyptians who worshipped Ra and Horus they all went to hell?

Thanks

Ernie

So, you are making science your god, and accepting it as truth, instead of what God's word says. John 17:17 says God's word is truth, not science. Yes, those who worshiped other gods went to hell when they died. God can and will reveal Himself to anyone who truly wants to know Him, whether they have heard of Him or not. He proved that by revealing Himself to Abraham, who was in a foreign land serving foreign gods. He believed in God, and is now the father of many nations. Don't allow man or science to be your source of truth, you will be deceived if you do. See 1 Timothy 6:20-21.

Non-theist

Hi,

no, science is not a god, science is an epistemological philosophy for acquiring knowledge invented by Galileo about 400 yr ago.

May I please ask you something - how do you know that the Bible is the truth? How do you know that it has divine authorship? You are using a passage FROM the Bible (John 17:17) to assert the Bible's own veracity. Isn't this circular logic?

Did you read those 2 papers I sent you? You don't have to read them all - just take a very quick look at the abstract. Reading the abstract only takes about 1 minute. Do you think that the scientists that wrote those papers are frauds? Do you think they are lying? Or do you think that they have done bad science and just are incorrect in their conclusions.

Read Exodus 11. Do you think God killed hundreds of Children?

Ernie

I don't know what circular logic has to do with the bible. You will not believe the bible is truth until Jesus becomes your Lord and Savior. If you reject Jesus, you will be rejected from entering heaven. I'll read what you sent, but man apart from God uses his own logic and reasoning, and does not represent the truth, just scientific facts. As far as God killing children, He did not. If you read what happened, Pharaoh ordered the killing of the Jewish children, and Pharaoh reaped what he had sown. He is the reason the Egyptian first born ( not necessarily children ) died. Also, Pharaoh could have let the people of Israel go and avoided this, but he hardened his heart, just like many do today when they hear God's word and reject it. If you ever decide to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you will know God's word is truth ( Romans 10:9-10 ). If you don't, you will live your days in darkness and deception ( John 3:19-20 and John 12:35-36 ).

If you will resend those links, I'll check it out, but I don't put any stock in what man says contrary to what God says. I always give God the final word. Science is only good when it helps man, not when it is used by wicked men for their own purposes; like trying to prove evolution over creation.

Non-theist

Well, circular logic is when the proposition to be proved is assumed implicitly or explicitly in the premise. Trying to prove the veracity of a text by using the text itself, as you have just done, is an instance of this. There are MANY books that claim divine authorship (i.e. containing text that is either inspired by God through prophets that were in contact with God or by containing the exact words of God). Examples are:

The Muslims' Qur'an,

The Bhagavad Gita,

The Vedas,

The Avesta of Zarathushtra,

The Kitáb-i-Aqdas of Bahá'u'lláh,

The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

The Book of Mormon,

The Urantia Book,

The Jewish Torah,

The Christian Gospel

etc.

And some of these are mutually exclusive i.e. they make claims that CANNOT both be true.

I repeat then, that using John 17:17 to prove the Christian Bible's own veracity is a logical fallacy. So my question remains - how do you know the Bible was authored by God?

My question is, in Exodus 11, was the death of the firstborn caused by God?

Do you believe the events in Exodus happened as depicted in Exodus?

Proof the Earth is 4.54 billion years (4.54 × 10^9 years 1%):

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v459/n7250/full/nature08089.html

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v436/n7048/full/nature03827.html

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v421/n6926/full/nature01421.html

Proof for a naturalistic origin of life (abiogenesis):

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v459/n7244/abs/nature08013.html

http://genetics.mgh.harvard.edu/szostakweb/publications/Szostak_pdfs/Mansy_et_al_2009_CSHS.pdf

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17987-how-life-evolved-10-steps-to-the-first-cells.html

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20427306.200-was-our-oldest-ancestor-a-protonpowered-rock.html

http://www.nature.com/nrg/journal/v10/n12/abs/nrg2697.html

http://www.rsc.org/publishing/journals/MB/article.asp?doi=b906541e

Proof life has been here at least 3 billion yr:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v463/n7283/full/nature08793.html

Proof humans have been around for at least 100000 yr:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/312/5781/1785

More proof of evolution:

see:

[web page]

But you have not answered my question. Do you think these scientists:

a) are frauds/liars

b) did bad science and got the wrong conclusion

c) got the correct conclusion

Which is it. Or would you like to add a d)?

Ernie

Ok, let's look at outside proof. Do you know creation itself is proof of God's existence? It is according to Genesis 1:1 and Romans 1:19-20. Now you have external proof that what God said is true; but whether you accept this proof is up to you. Evolution tries to disprove this with its theories, but theories are not truth, just suppositions. Do you also know that the earth was given to man to dominate, and enjoy it's beauty and riches? Satan deceived Eve, and through Adam's sin, he took control of the earth. As far as God authoring the bible, history itself has proven through the fulfillment of prophecy that the bible is true, and you can check out Lee Strobel's website for the case against Christ. He was a former atheist, but after 2 years of intense study and research, he proved the bible had to be true, and accepted Jesus as his Lord and Savior. As far as the religions you listed, none have Jesus as Lord and Savior but Christianity, because He is risen. Many have supposedly gotten their books from angels, but Satan can manifest as an angel of light, and he does to deceive many. All these religions go against what the bible says. The death of the firstborn was allowed by God, but caused by the hardness of Pharaoh's heart through sin. He enjoyed the slavery of the Israelites, and didn't want to let them go. God had said to Abraham anyone who cursed Israel would be cursed ( Genesis 12:3 ), and besides that, Pharaoh had ordered the murder of the Jewish boys.

The 10 plagues went against 10 of Egypt's gods, and could not be stopped. God proved He is the Most High God by defeating the Egyptian gods. To answer your question about the bible being truth; I have had personal experiences with God which happened after I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, and if you ever want to know God is real, then you will have to receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior ( Romans 10:9-10 and Acts 4:12: plus John 14:6 ). You can choose not to believe in Him if you want, but it is your eternity that is on the line. Remember, there is no time in eternity as we know time now, so the torment mentioned in the bible never ends ( Revelation 14:9-11 and Revelation 20:10-15 ). There are many more scriptures concerning hell, but these will give you the picture. I believe I gave you this link, but I will give it to you again. Please download and listen to the MP3, it will surprise you - http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=1&ved=0CAsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fspiritlessons.com%2FDocuments%2FBillWiese_23MinutesinHell_Text.htm&ei=0XeSS5iBHcL18QaJ-uD2BA&usg=AFQjCNEbFDK5C90xA3yzPEfrdGjdapTh8Q

To your question, I will answer B. I believe they used science falsely, because science cannot prove evolution. It is only a theory. I agree the earth could be 4 or 5 billion years old; not sure I believe man has been here 100,000 years though. Best estimates I get from the bible would be 10,000 to 12,000 years old, sine the bible says 1 day is as 1000 years to God, and He made man on the 6th day. There have been about 6000 years since Adam and Eve. I will also give you some links to check out- http://www.carm.org/secular-movements/atheism/failure-atheism-account-existence

http://www.carm.org/atheists-you-wont-find-god-that-way. I will check out your link, but I'm not impressed with atheists trying to disprove God with science ( see these scriptures about that in 1 Timothy 6:20-21

After seeing one of your links, you would need more faith in me to believe that theory. It is easier to believe God created everything, than to believe in a theory derived from cells developing into life. Once again, it is just a theory, not a proven truth; while creation is already here when we are born ( at least since Adam and Eve had children ). Science can explain a lot, and has its purpose in life; but to try and disprove God by trying to prove the theory of evolution is a gross misuse of science for purposes for which it was never intended. Why does science need theories of evolution if it is considered truth? Science is limited to man's understanding, while the truth of God's word doesn't need science to back it up.

Non-theist

Hello,

Thank you for your reply.

I have decided to switch format by dissecting your reply because you made various claims and I think this is the best layout to reply to them. So I will often paste some of your reply along with mine after it.

"Ok, let's look at outside proof. Do you know creation itself is proof of God's existence?"

No, it is not. It is only proof of natural laws. These laws may or may not have a supernatural origin but we could just as well say the universe was created by a supernatural alien called Mork who wanted us to discover pasta or that the universe was created by Vishnu, the Hindu God.

Many aspects of the observable universe are as we would expect if it was the product of natural laws that have no consciousness. Now, I fully agree that we do not have a comprehensive scientific understanding of the origin of human emotion, but this in no way suggests that the Christian God is responsible for it or for the rest of the universe.

"It is according to Genesis 1:1 and Romans 1:19-20."

No, I repeat that is circular logic. Did you not understand what I just said in my last message?

"Evolution tries to disprove this with its theories, but theories are not truth, just suppositions"

No, evolution doesn't "try" do disprove anything. None of science ""tries" to disprove anything. Science is merely looking at the facts, and making the best logical model to explain them all.

"As far as God authoring the bible, history itself has proven through the fulfillment of prophecy that the bible is true"

Can you please give me a list of the BEST five or so prophecies that prove its veracity as a divinely authored book. And please remember, vague or self-fulfilling "prophecies" will not do.

"and you can check out Lee Strobel's website for the case against Christ."

Lee Strobel is a scientific illiterate and a charlatan. I am completely convinced that reading or viewing his material would be a waste of time. I am saying this because I have ALREADY seen much of his material. I strongly suggest you get your information from more reputable sources and examine your sources more carefully.

For example I refer you to a book called "The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts" about the archaeology of Palestine and its relationship to the origins of the Hebrew Bible by Israel Finkelstein, Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University. He is a PROFESSOR. Strobel is not. His highest degree is in LAW! His conclusion is that much of the Bible was mere propaganda, with much of the Old Testament not being historically accurate and its characters mythical. Now why would a professor *in Israel* fake something like that?

Everything else you said in your first and second paragraph hinges on the Bible. I repeat again, you have to prove the veracity of the Bible first! How would you react if I began quoting the Vedas scripture as if it were true??? What would you say to me???

But I would like to ask you this. Was it the children's fault that the Pharaoh did the things he did? The things the Pharaoh did were the actions of the Pharaoh, not the children. So why kill the children instead of just punishing the Pharaoh? Do you agree then that this was an instance of murder of innocent children?

"To your question, I will answer B. I believe they used science falsely"

Are you aware that Nature is one of the most prestigious scientific journals in the world and has a track record of excellence? Now you are saying that ALL of these scientists did bad science and got the wrong conclusions. Are you aware that all those authors of those papers I sent you are extremely skilled and educated people? Why would they still get it wrong? Why would Nature, one of the best journals in the world, publish bad science?

But actually, the real question I want to ask you is this. Can you please tell me exactly where they went wrong? What part of the investigation did they get wrong, in your opinion?

"I agree the earth could be 4 or 5 billion years old; not sure I believe man has been here 100,000 years though."

Okay, read this:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v433/n7027/pdf/nature03258.pdf

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/02/0216_050216_omo.html

I am copying from the abstract,

"Our preferred estimate of the age of the Kibish hominids is 195 +/- 5 kyr, making them the earliest well-dated *anatomically modern humans* yet described."

"Best estimates I get from the bible would be 10,000 to 12,000 years old,"

I repeat - you cannot use the Bible without first showing me that it is an authoritative source of information and its veracity as a divinely-authored text. If I quoted another holy book X that is NOT the Bible and say to you "No - it says in this holy book God X created it 50 000 years ago", then what would you say? You would ask me to first prove that my holy book X is authoritative and divinely authored right?

By the way, the word for "day" is the same in Genesis as in the rest of the Bible and in every other context the word "day" actually means 1 day, so the authors of Genesis did mean 1 day.

Concerning your links...

First one was written by a scientific illiterate. Our current model of the universe DOES have something that existed before the big bang. I can give you links if you want. Furthermore it does not prove the Christian aspects of God.

The second one was written by the same man it seems. Here's an excerpt:

"In my many discussions with atheists, I am frequently challenged to prove God exists. Sorry, no such luck for the atheist. It doesnt mean that I dont have proof. I think the cosmological and transcendental arguments are proof enough."

So, he is just hinging on the first article, which I have just said is based on ignorance of cosmology as well as cowardly omitting the burden of proof of the Christian aspects of God. What I mean is EVEN IF I conceded to a personal first cause, you still have to prove

he hears prayers,

he answers prayers,

he revealed himself in the Bible

he was Jesus,

etc...

"After seeing one of your links, you would need more faith in me to believe that theory. It is easier to believe God created everything, than to believe in a theory derived from cells developing into life"

No, it does not require any faith at all. It is merely the logical conclusion that is derived from the facts. The papers have shown experimentally how cells could have assembled in prebiotic conditions. And what do you mean "It is easier to believe God created everything"?

"Science is limited to man's understanding,"

Yes, so is everything.

"while the truth of God's word doesn't need science to back it up."

I repeat again for the third time, you have to prove the veracity and divine authority of the Bible first.

It is not ideal to correspond with [] messages so if you want to pursue the conversation please email me @[email]

Cheers

Hi,

My reply was long, so I posted it here [web address]. If you want me to remove it just tell me.

Cheers

Ernie

I don't have anything to hide, as long as what I say does not get twisted. I had that happen by a Catholic who only posted part of my answer. I told him post it all, because I stand behind what I say; it is in the bible. It is God's word, not mine, but I believe God.

I would ask that you remove my posting, because you cannot disprove anything I said. You are doing just what I hate, by disregarding my whole answer, and picking parts. It is your eternity you are rejecting, not mine. I will spend eternity with God, and if you refuse all the visible evidence, as well as what we cannot see even with the biggest telescope, then your eternity will be in the lake of fire, whether you believe it or not. Our discussion has ended.

Non-theist

Hahaha! Well, please let me burn in the lake of fire. I would rather burn in it a thousand times than worship a God who would put me there just for having the fortitude to acknowledge the evidence that we see with our own eyes. If your God really would torture me for following honest, unbiased pursuit of knowledge, then he is not worthy of worship.

I have removed the web page, as you requested. I do, however, want to comment on your accusation. I honestly feel I replied to your answer in its entirety. As I said in the actual reply, half of your reply hinged on the veracity of the Bible, which you failed to show and for which the scientific and historical evidence is against. And you also failed to sustain the Bible's claim to contain divine authorship. I really just hope you are not being willfully ignorant. If you remember anything from this interchange, be it that science has no biases. If science was on the side of God, it would be.

Thank you anyway for the conversation. It was interesting.

Ernie

You did what a Catholic minister did to my answer, and you didn't have proof of your assumptions. Man has been trying to disprove the bible for centuries, without success, and will never disprove God's creation. You can laugh and reject the bible as truth, but in the end you will not be laughing. Neither will I about you, because I will know you wound up right where I told you. You still have time in your life to change your mind, but don't wait too long. What you reject can become your reality when you die.

I'll give you a link to check out, but you'll probably reject it too. Funny, if a Christian scientist speaks about creation evidence, the atheistic scientists and other non-Christians say he/she is crazy, or mistaken. Science actually proves the truths of the bible, but you and others overlook that proof, and instead try to prove as theory. Remember this, facts are not truth. Example: to science, cancer may be incurable, but to God it is not. There have been many documented proof of people being healed by God of incurable cancer. What does your science say about that?

Here is the link - http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geus5pBpRLD0IAC0dXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzMTlnam43BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA0Y3NTVfMTE0/SIG=11k9pb11a/EXP=1268078569/**http%3a//www.creationevidence.org/

Non-theist

Look, I really don't understand why you said "You did what a Catholic minister did to my answer, and you didn't have proof of your assumptions". I gave you about 10 references and a link to another 30 or so! Why are you saying that? And I repeat! I felt that I answered to your whole message in its entirety, bearing in mind that half of it hinged on the veracity of the Bible, which you have not been able to disprove.

I gave you MANY links to scientific articles, proving the age of the earth, the age of our species, support for a naturalistic origin of life, including experimental evidence in prebiotic conditions, and proof of evolution. You dismissed them as bad science. I asked you why and you didn't reply.

I also referenced a book by an Israeli professor of archeology, showing the historical fallacies in the Bible. You dismissed it completely without even mentioning it.

I also asked you to give your five best prophecies as examples of prophecies that you think show the Bible's authority as a God-authored book. You completely ignored me and failed to do so.

I am losing patience. Please show me the prophecies and please sustain your claim that the Bible is authored by God and authoritative and tell me why you think all those scientists who published in Nature did bad science.

Now regarding your link. The Creation Evidence Museum are scientific illiterates, frauds and charlatans. I repeat, get your information from reliable sources! Those people are NOT genuine scientists, they are charlatans deceiving you to advance a religious agenda. How do I know? Well, first of all, the research from real scientists invalidated their claim that dinosaurs coexisted with humans. For example, here is an article exposing the fraud of Carl Baugh "dinosaur footprints next to human footprints" claim:

http://www.dallasobserver.com/1996-12-12/news/footprints-of-fantasy

Also, his highest 'science' degree is a masters in archeology and it is from the Pacific International University which is an unaccredited institution.

It took me about 1 minute to find just what frauds the people who wrote your link are.

Finally, you said:

"There have been many documented proof of people being healed by God of incurable cancer. What does your science say about that?"

Excellent! PLEASE, PLEASE give me the references so I can read about them.

But let me ask you something. How come when you pray for God to heal all the sick people in the world he does not? Has it ever occurred to you that sometimes people recover from diseases naturally and that therefore that is not proof of God's intervention??

Ernie

Look, if you deny the bible as the inspired word of God, there is nothing I can do to prove anything the bible claims. If you accept science as your truth, you will always reject the word of God when it conflicts with your science. I didn't read all your answer, once I saw you were dissecting it like a frog, and using scientists and other human references that go against the bible. I also gave you references, but you dismissed them as foolish, just like God said in His word that you and other unbelievers would do ( 1 Corinthians 1:18-29 ). I can't use outside sources to prove God's word, I use the word itself. If you refuse the truth of God's word, my word, or any other persons word, will have no meaning. You use scientists word as truth, and they are limited in their knowledge, while God is not limited. You dismissed Lee Strobel, who is an ex-atheist, who did 2 years of research just to disprove the bible, but failed. Also, I gave you a creation evidence link. I was not commanded to go into all the world and prove the gospel, but preach and teach it. I am obeying God, and don't have time to argue with anyone who refuses the word of God as truth. The bible proves itself, just look at creation, and tell me this all happened with a big bang. Be real, quit following others into deeper darkness. As far as your Israeli professor, if he isn't a Christian, he rejects the NT; so of course he will speak against it.

God never promised to heal all the sick people in the world, He heals all who come to Him by faith. Many trust your science and doctors than they do God, so they die of their diseases when science has no answer for them. Your science says people with incurable cancer have to die. Know how I know this? My sister died from brain cancer, because the doctor told her she had 6 months to live. She died in 4. She didn't believe God had already healed her on the cross ( Galatians 3:13 and 1 Peter 2:24 ). I'm willing to bet all your scientists would discredit all Christian scientists, because they have 2 different sources of truth. Here is a reference to a man of God who got healed - Beginning to preach

According to Hagin's testimony, he was sickly as a child, suffering from a deformed heart and what was believed to be an incurable blood disease. He related that he was not expected to live and became bedfast at age 16. In April 1933 during a dramatic conversion experience, he reported dying three times in 10 minutes, each time seeing the horrors of hell and then returning to life. He also claimed that he was raised from a deathbed in 1934 by "the revelation of faith in God's Word" (Kenneth Hagin, I Went to Hell and What Faith Is). Five renowned doctors, one a leading doctor at the Mayo Clinic, said he had to die. Science had no answer for Him, but God healed him, and raised him up to teach the word of faith until 2003.

Non-theist

Hi,

Ouf!!!

I'm going to try to explain this as simply as I can. I have already explained this to you and you obviously have not understood it.

You are said you have to take the veracity and divine authority of the Bible on faith. But there are MANY books that claim to be the inspired word of God, such as all those I mentioned. You said "if you deny the bible as the inspired word of God, there is nothing I can do to prove anything the bible claims." Well I rest my case. Just ask yourself, how you you react if I was a Muslim and I said to you,

"if you deny the Qur'an as the inspired word of God, there is nothing I can do to prove anything the Qur'an's claims."

or if I was a Hindu and I said

"if you deny the Vedas as the inspired word of God, there is nothing I can do to prove anything the Vedas's claims."

etc etc

Get the picture? You have just proved your own bigotry. You *need* some sort of evidence or support for your claim that the Bible contains divine authorship or that it is the correct revelation of God. Otherwise, you are being bigoted and irrational. Unless you have some other reason to believe the Bible is the word of God, but you have consistently failed to do so after about 4 emails of pleading so I doubt it.

Now, I repeat to you again because this is paramount and if you remember anything from this interchange, I hope it will be this: Science HAS NO AGENDA. It is UNBIASED BY DEFINITION. If science was on the side of God, it would be! There is NO global conspiracy working "against the Bible", nor are they doing bad science - they are just doing honest and objective science.

And I repeat, since you obviously did not understand, that using the Bible itself to prove its own veracity is called CIRCULAR LOGIC!!! What if it said in the Qur'an or in the Vedas "this is the true word of God and his true revelation"??? What would be your reaction? Surely you would say to me that I have just said to you: You cannot use the text's own words!

I will defend my position that Lee Strobel is a fraud and a scientific illiterate. How do I know? Because I watched a few of his speeches and he knows NOTHING about science. He is an unlettered bigot. If you want me to prove this point further I WILL BE HAPPY TO. I can dissect his arguments in detail and show you where he says complete nonsense.

I dismissed your references as foolish because they were written by FRAUD and SCIENTIFIC ILLITERATES. The institutions they went to ARE NOT ACCREDITED and they DID NOT PUBLISH IN THE SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS!

I also know they are frauds because I studied the evidence for evolution, abiogenesis and cosmology.

Yes, yes yes. I HAVE "looked at creation". I am a scientist. I still think that many o the claims made in the Bible are completely preposterous and that the concept of God is ridiculous.

Yes, it did happen with a big bang. Do you have any idea how much long HARD work went into giving us our current picture of cosmology? Thousands of extremely skilled experts in physics working hard to collect data, build instruments that look into space, observe the outside universe and then you dismiss all of their hard work over some magical explanation from a book written by scientific illiterates in Bronze age Palestine? And you have the gumption to say it's "bad science"? Well do better science then!!! It is demeaning and insulting. If God did exist, why would he want to stop us from investigating the universe, ourselves and the world around us??

Hahahaha! You think God can heal cancer? Well obviously, he doesn't want to. So that must mean there is a reason. What might that be?

I am sorry about your sister. Did you pray for her to heal?

Who is Hagin? I repeat again: sometimes people recover, sometimes they don't. My explanation is that he was simply hallucinating and that he recovered from his disease by natural means - not though God

Cheers

Ernie

You know how I know the bible is the word of God, and not the Qu-ran, or any other book? Simply because I did exactly what God said to do in Romans 10:9-10, and have received the new life Jesus promised. I am experiencing God, not some religious rituals like the Muslims, or believing I can come back as another ( hopefully higher ) life form like the Hindus. I have been in God's presence, experienced His angels He said were sent to protect me in Psalm 91:11-12, and have literally seen with through Jesus' eyes. I'm, not talking about a religion, but a real relationship with God. You have no clue, because you would rather trust science and what makes sense to your natural mind, and do not know what the reality of a life changed by God will do for you. The bible will not make any sense to unbelievers, as you have proved in your statements. You are confined to the natural life, I am not. I will prosper when the world goes through recession, because God blesses me, and my trust is in Him, not in the government or myself. If you ever accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, the light will come into you ( and turn on in your heart and mind ), and you will know and experience exactly what I am saying. Until then, you will doubt and debate, but not learn the truth of God ( 1 Timothy 6:20-21 and John 1:1-5 ).

You state that you think the bible's claims are " completely preposterous*, which even your statement proves the word, because God said men would call His word foolish, because He knows and thinks much higher than you or I do. Proverbs 3:5 says not to lean on your own understanding, which is exactly what you do. I don't doubt most scientists think they are so smart, which will really make them so foolish. Creation is still proof that God exists, but you refuse to believe it, because your science can't prove or disprove it. Without Jesus as your Lord and Savior, I don't expect you to believe what I believe, because you cannot. Until you realize God is so far above, and so much greater than science, you will always be bound by science's limitations.

LOL, you are funny. Ok, here we go. First, yes, I believe in the big bang. God spoke, and bang, it came to be. Not the foolish big bang theory you and other scientists have worked so hard to try and disprove God. You cannot, it still remains just a theory. God has no problem with you using science for what it was intended, but when you misuse it for your own pride and ego, to prove what you cannot prove, then you have put yourself in His place, a place you cannot stand. I'll explain why some people don't get healed, it is simple. My sister only believed God could heal her, not that He already had through the cross of Jesus. Jesus already bore her cancer, but she never believed that, because she was taught wrong about the bible, as so many are. You are like the Pharisees, who wanted Jesus to come down from the cross, and then they would believe. They wouldn't have, and probably said His hands and feet just tore loose from the spikes, or the wind blew Him off. Unbelief is wickedness, because it causes you to believe a lie rather than the truth, which is exactly what you are doing ( see 1 Corinthians 2:14 and 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ). Those scriptures tell why you don't believe in God or His word.

Oh yes, God can and does heal cancer, and there are many who have testified to that. Are you calling them liars? Isn't it true that even science says many cancers cannot be healed? Then how can cancer just disappear, especially after a Christian has prayed for them? I got a question for you: if I ask 100 Christians if they believe in God, what will there answer be? If I ask 100 unbelieving scientists if they believe in evolution and the big bang instead of creation, what will they say? We are on 2 different sides of life, you are limited to logic and your own reasoning, while I have unlimited access to the Creator of everything, including human life. I have the mind of Christ, while you only have your own reasoning, which is flawed. I'm not putting you down, because before I got saved, I too was limited to my own thinking. You will never know the truth through science, only if you get born again will you know truth.

Oh yeah, I didn't tell you who Kenneth Hagin is. He is a teacher of the bible, especially faith and healing. Anyway, he was healed by God of an incurable heart disease, and a deformed heart. Science said he had to die, that no one with his situation lived past the age of 16. 5 doctors had said he must die, but God said no. He lived to the age of 86, and had a ministry for 69 years. You cannot honestly believe he just got better, do you? Please tell me you have better sense than that, even if you deny God did it. Unbelief is truly wicked, because it refuses evidence even when it is clearly seen. God was the only answer, especially when his mom was praying non stop. God is my God, while science is your god. You put your faith in science, while I only put my faith in God. Question: does your science have an answer for the increase of the earthquakes? My bible does, in Matthew 24. While you rely on science to say it is tectonic plates shifting ( which is correct ), science cannot say why. Sin, which brought a curse on the earth, is the reason why we have earthquakes, just like the bible says. The final conclusion is the bible has all the answers, while science is limited. If you rely only on what non-Christian scientists say, you will always be deceived concerning the truth.

Non-theist

Hi,

Romans 10:9-10 reads

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

Saved from what? Hell? Do you know how that sounds? That means that if an atheist happens to be nice, self-sacrificing and kind he will STILL go to hell just for not believing. If the only thing that determines our fate in the afterlife is belief in Jesus, then yes, I would rather go to hell than worship a capricious psycho like God.

"I am experiencing God"

Can you please tell me how you are experiencing him? What experiences do you have?

"I have been in God's presence, experienced His angels"

What does God look like? Can you take a photograph of him? Can you ask him to give you evidence to show other people? How do you know you are in his presence?

How have you experienced his angels? What do the angels look like? What exactly did you experience?

Here's my question. What would you say if I said to you "I have experienced Allah and therefore I know more than you" or "I have experienced Vishnu and therefore I know more than you"? Would you find that offensive? I'm sorry but your argument isn't convincing at all - people claim to have experienced Vishnu and Allah and all the rest - how do you know THEY aren't experiencing the real God?

"and have literally seen with through Jesus' eyes"

How did you do that? I thought Jesus was dead. Do you mean metaphorically? If yes, what do you mean?

The reason I trust science is because it is epistemologically sound. If you found you had an infection from a virus or a bacteria that is making you sick and you're getting worse, which would you rather have, a doctor's treatment or a priest praying for you (if you could only choose 1)?

If it wasn't for science we'd both be dead. We BOTH trust science, except that you are arbitrarily reject components of it just because it conflicts with your religion. You know that paternity tests and DNA evidence used in courts is exactly the same as the evidence we have for evolution right? If you accept the former and not the latter it's hypocritical.

You do know that God isn't the only thing that changes lives right? There are MANY things that can change our lives for the better and make us better, braver and kinder people that have absolutely NOTHING to do with God.

"You are confined to the natural life, I am not."

What do you mean by "confined to the natural life"?

How do you know that I am confined to the "natural life"? Just because I am not convinced that I have experienced your God? I have had some extraordinary experiences, I just don't make the assumption that they were from a supernatural divine entity like your God.

I was a Christian once. No, there was no "light", nor did I experience anything that you are describing. I did not experience angels or any clear manifestation of God. Why do you think that is? Why do you think so few people experience God directly?

So let me get this straight. Just because I have not experienced your God, that means that you are somehow exposed to an extra dimension of spirituality?

"Until then, you will doubt and debate, but not learn the truth of God"

What is the truth of God?

Why do you keep quoting from the Bible? You have consistently failed to prove its authority and its divine authorship by your own admittance.

"God said men would call His word foolish"

I think the Bible, as many other foundational monotheistic books, were written to control people and those words were included to make it sound more credible.

There are some great things in the Bible too however. And I appreciate it hugely just as a work of literature. It's just in terms of its metaphysical and moral claims I have an issue with. I think the Bible makes some ridiculous claims because I think those claims are ridiculous, not because I "don't like God" or I am "out to get God".

You're still speaking of God as if he was real yet you have not proved he exists. What is your best evidence or best proof that God exists?

You think scientists are foolish? Like I said, that is both insulting and stupid, seeing as you probably owe your life to them several times over, as well as the comfort of our civilisation. Without scientists, we would be in the Dark Ages, throwing our own crap on the streets and dying at 25 on average.

"Creation is still proof that God exists, but you refuse to believe it, because your science can't prove or disprove it."

What do you mean by "creation"? The universe? No, I repeat the universe is not proof of a creator because it doesn't look designed for our comfort and there is no proof for a supernatural entity. I have asked you to give me proof of a supernatural, personal, interventionist God but you haven't done so. The only thing you said was "I experienced God and angels" and I already explained that that is insufficient because MILLIONS of people have not experienced your God at all, or they say they experience other Gods, like Vishnu or Allah.

I am not saying that there couldn't be supernatural components to the universe. Maybe there are, but there is no evidence for that. But anything unknown will always be by definition speculation. You are right in saying science cannot disprove the Christian God. Nor can it prove it, but precisely therein lies the weakness of your claim, for the same may be said of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

"What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence"

- Christopher Hitchens

And I think it is very arrogant of you to assume that somehow you have been privy to a special revelation. Even more condescending is saying that you have access to a larger spiritual realm than those of us who have not had a revelation from your God, which is what you seemed to be implying from your messages. From our standpoint it looks as though you might be hallucinating. Hindus could say exactly the same about you - they could say that your mind is limited because you have not experienced Vishnu.

"God spoke, and bang, it came to be."

No, it DIDN'T. We now have theories about what there was before the big bang (see the links on my page). But EVEN IF we didn't, you still have not proved the big bang was created by God. The Big Bang theory says NOTHING about God. Nor does any other sustained theory in science.

"You cannot, it still remains just a theory"

Do you know what a theory is? Do you know that gravity is also a theory? The point is, the big bang theory, which explains the evolution of our universe without the Christian God, is supported by evidence.

"God has no problem with you using science for what it was intended"

What was science intended for?

"but when you misuse it for your own pride and ego, to prove what you cannot prove, then you have put yourself in His place, a place you cannot stand."

No. I will REPEAT this again for the THIRD TIME! Science HAS NO RELIGIOUS OR POLITICAL AGENDA. It is an unbiased investigation of the universe with the scientific method which is INHERENTLY UNBIASED. Do you understand this?

Can you please explain what you mean by "God already healed her [your sister] through the cross of Jesus"?

So let me get this straight. You think that God did not heal your sister because she refused to believe that "Jesus already bore her cancer on the cross"? Is that why God doesn't heal people sometimes? Because they don't believe? Are you serious?

"Unbelief is wickedness, because it causes you to believe a lie rather than the truth"

You want people to believe the literal interpretation of the scripture in spite of clear, verifiable evidence that's right in front of our eyes? What kind of God is this God of yours? How can he possible deem us wicked just for pursuing knowledge? If that is indeed what God expects us to do then he sounds like a complete prick.

1 Corinthians 2:14 reads

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Are you saying I am without the Spirit? What is the spirit?

2 Corinthians 4:3-4 reads

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

Ha! I think Paul of Tarsus just included that line to make the claims he made sound more credible. What would you say if I showed you a holy book, say the Qur'an or the Vedas, and it said "those who do not believe in this book are blinded by the god of this age" and "those who cannot see the glory of Allah/Vishnu are perishing and they have been blinded"? How would you react?

Have you read any other holy books apart from the Bible?

But I actually find the passage not only stupid but also offensive. It is a hallmark of intolerance and declared bigotry. Any doctrine which instructs you not to question its authority in the face of opposing evidence is a testament to its weakness. You are saying we must not question the alleged "word of God" in spite of evidence against it. What kind of God are you worshiping? What kind of sick God would tell you NOT to use your own ability to explore the universe and make up your own mind about things?

When God does heal people, what is the mechanism? Magic? You do know that only children believe in magic right? Why don't we get rid of all the doctors in the hospital and have people praying for the healing of cancer patients instead? This is why I thank the stars that delusional scientific illiterates are not in charge of public policy, especially public health.

"and there are many who have testified to that. Are you calling them liars?"

No, I am saying that from where I am standing it looks like they are probably delusional and hallucinating. Perhaps they are just badly informed or just uneducated. Sometimes people get better depending on the cancer, sometimes the therapy given to them by doctors work. There is no proof that THE PRAYER was what made them better.

But okay, please give me a reference where a case of recovery from cancer WITH NO TREATMENT and WITH PRAYER is documented. I am willing to admit I may be wrong.

As for the story about Kenneth Hagin, his claim was fraud. See

http://www.letusreason.org/wf25.htm

You probably don't know this. But A LOT of people recover from weak hearts or heart attacks. There is NO PROOF that the PRAYERS were what healed him. Do you know how ridiculous that claim is? If that's the best you can do then that's the best you can do. Don't bore me any more with stories of scientifically illiterate frauds who make up stories just to advance their religious agenda.

Also look up ascertainment bias.

Here are some ACTUAL studies made on the effect of prayer on heart diseases:

A Randomized Trial of the Effects of Remote Intercessory Prayer: Interactions with Personal Beliefs on Problem-Specific Outcomes and Functional Status

http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.1089%2F1075553041323803

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: A multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer

http://www.ahjonline.com/article/S0002-8703%2805%2900649-6/abstract

It doesn't work.

"Unbelief is truly wicked, because it refuses evidence even when it is clearly seen."

It's not that I "have unbelief". I am willing to believe the Christian God exists, given the proper evidence. All the reasons you have given me to prove your claims are all unsustained speculations whereas I base my claims on ACTUAL verifiable physical evidence. And it goes against the literal interpretation of the Bible.

"does your science have an answer for the increase of the earthquakes?"

Yes. They are not.

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/learn/topics/increase_in_earthquakes.php

That took me about 10 seconds.

"My bible does, in Matthew 24. While you rely on science to say it is tectonic plates shifting ( which is correct ), science cannot say why."

Yes, it can. The breaking up of the Earth's early crust as well as their movement is because of the convection currents and activity in the mantle. Read:

Magmatism at rifted continental margins, Nature 330, 439-444 (3 December 1987)

It's been KNOWN FOR 23 YEARS!

"Sin, which brought a curse on the earth, is the reason why we have earthquakes, just like the bible says."

Nope - it's the earth's mantle, like i just said. Nothing to do with God at all.

"The final conclusion is the bible has all the answers, while science is limited. If you rely only on what non-Christian scientists say, you will always be deceived concerning the truth."

No, it has ridiculous speculations with absolutely no verifiable evidence. I have shown you publications that show the physical evidence for all the things I have said but you've STILL not shown me ANY objective evidence that the Bible is authored by God or that God exists. You have to show these things first. Also, I've shown that all the stories you mentioned about getting healed with prayer were probably fake. So who exactly is deceived?

Why do scientists HAVE to be Christian to get to the right conclusion?

Ernie

Saved from an eternity separated from God in total darkness and torment without any hope of escape. An atheist cannot be nice according to God's standard, only mans. I have been in God's throneroom in worship; I got delivered from the spirit of fear ( and at least 27 other spirits ); I have prayed for someone who died after a motorcycle accident, and he is alive now. Yes, I experienced His angels, which agrees with what He said in Psalm 91:11-12 and Hebrews 1:14. I had one on each side of me the night I got delivered from fear; and they prevented that spirit from getting back in. They are at least 8-9 feet tall. I didn't see them, but I knew they were present ( too hard to explain to an unbeliever ). You don't have to believe or understand what I am telling you, but I know. You could experience whatever you want, but if it isn't in agreement with God's word, it is a manifestation of Satan, who can appear as an angel of light to deceive many. I have also experienced Satan's presence, and I know what he represents. It is darkness and evil, because there is no light or truth in him, only wickedness and hatred for mankind. Ok, for example, the Muslims are a violent religion, and want to force all to accept their religion. Muhammad got revelations supposedly from an angel, but they went against the bible, so he wrote the Qu-ran. He murdered people who disagreed with him. Christians are taught to love even our enemies, not kill them.

Any Christian that kills another is not representing God, but is doing the work of Satan ( John 10:10a ). I literally saw through Jesus' eyes, and everyone is precious; not black, white, fat, or skinny. I have never seen like that with my natural eyes since, but now know how Jesus sees us. Jesus is alive, not dead, because even His body was raised from the dead ( Acts 1:11 ). If the priest ( I say pastor ) knew God, I would rather have my pastor pray. He has prayed and gotten people healed by God before. DNA does not prove evolution, but does prove creation. Only God can give eternal life, no matter whether we seem better or not. No other religion provides eternal life, because only Christianity has a risen Savior; Jesus. Eternal life is only through Jesus, not any other god you mentioned.

You are confined to the natural life because you trust science, and are not a child of God. God makes us a living spirit when we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, and you have a dead spirit ( see Genesis 1:17 and 1 Timothy 5:6 ). You are still dead in your trespasses and sins, while I have become a new creature ( or creation in Christ Jesus - 2 Corinthians 5:17 ). If you have not asked Jesus to come into your heart, you have not experienced my God. You can, and Romans 10:9-10&13 is the way to do it.

You were never a Christian, and are not now. You may have mentally agreed with the word, and never received Jesus into your heart. Many have done that, only to walk away from God when things didn't happen the way they expected. Many Christians have experienced more of God than me, even going to heaven and coming back to tell about it. I have experienced God because I have cried out to Him, and am seeking Him. He promises that anyone who diligently seeks Him will find Him. The truth of God is His word, but you cannot let man or science tell you what truth is, they don't know. Science only knows a limited amount of truth, not everything. The problem is, you don't accept the bible as the word of God, but just a book. That is why you don't know God, because He is revealed in His word, not through science. Creation is my proof to you that God exists; and if you refuse creation, what you refused to believe will be a witness against you in the day of judgment. I don't have to prove God's existence to you, He never told me to prove Him, just preach and teach the gospel of Grace. I simply share the good news; and if you reject it, you will answer for your decision. I have done my part in sharing the good news ( see Romans 1:16-20 ). Ask anyone who has been healed by God of incurable cancer, and see what they tell you. Science had no answer for them, but God did. Science is limited to the natural, while God is supernatural.

Concerning scientists, I don't say they are stupid or foolish, but they do live in darkness ( spiritual - see Isaiah 60:1-3, and notice verse 2. Darkness covers the earth, and gross darkness the people, but Jesus is the Light of God's children. We have the light, but you, and other non-Christian scientists, have darkness. As you put it, I can only offer you God's word concerning creation, and it is in Genesis 1:1. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Heavens are the entire universe, and the earth was given to man to dominate and rule over it. The earth is for our pleasure, whereas the universe is for our amazement. Bottom line, natural man, limited to logic and reasoning, cannot understand God, or His creative power. Unless you become a Christian, what we believe will always be foolishness to you.

Lol, you are funny. Any Christian has access to the supernatural realm, while unbelievers do not have access. They may have access to Satan's supernatural realm, because he is part of the spirit realm. Many satanists have demonic power, but not the power of God, which is far greater. Again, you only have theories, which is not truth, nor fact. Theory is only an opinion, and you try to make the evidence science knows to make it real. Gravity is a truth, just jump off a building and find out. It has surpassed theory. What you don't realize is even gravity can be overridden by God's power, just as Jesus walked on water. Normally, anyone would sink fast. Science was intended for many things, such as medicine and technology, but not as a religion. That goes beyond science. Christianity is far beyond science, and cannot be disproved by it. Healing has already been supplied for all mankind, and my sister could have accepted her healing, and still be alive. Healing is a past tense to God, accomplished on the cross, just like salvation, but it has to be received by faith. My sister didn't believe God had healed her, but that He could. That made healing a future thing, not now, which faith is now ( Hebrews 11:1 ). Faith is not tomorrow, but right now. Jesus told people your faith has healed you, and they were healed. By faith is how we receive anything from God, and without faith we cannot receive anything ( Hebrews 11:6 ).

That is exactly why people don't get healed, it is not up to God to heal anyone, He has done all He is ever going to do. Jesus said it is finished on the cross. The bible says we walk by faith, not by sight ( Romans 10:17 ). You need to see to believe, but I believe before I see, and then I will see. 2 different kingdoms; yours is of Satan, and mine is of God, because there are only 2 spiritual fathers in the earth; Satan and God. Pursuing knowledge in itself isn't evil, but when it is apart from God, it is subject to deception. Why do you think God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? God would have taught them, if they hadn't believed the lie of Satan. The Holy Spirit is given to all who accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. He is the one who gives us revelation knowledge, which is far superior to knowledge, because you cannot learn the knowledge of God, only man. Until you believe and receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you will remain without the Spirit, and remain spiritually dead and in darkness.

Do you hear yourself? You are telling me what you think, not what God has said. Satan is wiser than man, and has given visions in order to deceive man to never believe in God through His word. That is why most religions have their own book instead of the bible, and which contradict the bible. Paul warns against this in Galatians 1:7-9. This is called another gospel, and it is accursed. I realize the blindness of Satan, as I deal with this with anyone who doesn't believe God's word. Remember, Satan is the god of this world, and has blinded the minds of those who don't believe in the bible, as 2 Corinthians 4:3-4. God has already proved Himself to me, and I have seen just what His word says about Satan. People who are not saved usually dislike me, because of my stand for God. I expect this, and am blessed for this persecution ( see 1 Peter 4:12-16 and 2 Timothy 3:12-13 ). I don't consider other books as holy, but I have read parts. Like the Qu-ran; part of it was copied from the book of Isaiah word for word, so that part is God's word. But the religion as a whole does not believe Jesus is the Savior, and has placed Muhammad higher than Him. I believe Muhammad was demon possessed, because he suffered seizures, and wallowed and foamed at the mouth. Then he would receive what later became the Qu-ran, which he said he got from an angel, which was supposed to be Gabriel. It wasn't, because what he received disagreed with God's word, which makes it a false doctrine.

Doctors are really for those who don't know God, which is most of the world right now. They would die without doctors, because they don't know and trust God for healing. Do you yet see that it is your thinking about God healing people that is hindering you? Satan has blinded you, just like the bible says. Read Proverbs 3:5 and see what I mean; along with Proverbs 14:12. Kenneth Hagin is the one I gave as a reference, but you have turned to what man has said. I cannot get his medical records, because they are confidential. But, everything he taught was from the bible, as I have searched it out myself. Believe what you want with an unbelieving heart, that is your choice. Deception will be your friend. So don't bother me with claims science cannot prove, or disprove concerning what God does. I have given my personal experiences, not someone elses. I don't need your approval to know God and His word are true. Experience is better than your argument of unbelief.

Is not creation proper evidence? That is the most substantial evidence, right in your face, and you still won't believe. That is the epitome of unbelief. You would rather believe a theory than what God says, proving not only your blindness to the truth, but the limitations of man's mind. Your assessment of cancer just getting better by itself is in itself a slap to the face of science; which states that it is incurable; and the person has to die. That is what the doctor told my sister, and she did. Healing was always her to have, but she never believed or received it, so she is in heaven now. Hey, the link you gave me proves nothing; because I cannot make someone else believe what I believe. You are proof of that. Each person has to believe for themselves, and if they don't, they can die ( if it is terminal ). Kenneth Hagin died in faith, right after he had eaten breakfast. He just went home, and his body was revived, and his family had to command his heart to stop beating days later. I don't expect you to believe this, it is beyond your understanding, or science.

No, science does not have an answer for the earthquakes, and your answer was ignorant. You said yes, they are not. That does not even make sense, because earthquakes are real. The bible explains why the frequency of them is increasing, just read Matthew 24:7-8. These are compared to the birth pangs of a woman, and will become more and more frequent. We have had at least 5 just this year, and many more will come. Just watch and see. Matthew 24 has been known for almost 2000 years! I truly hope you don't have to find out the hard way, because there will be such a great earthquake during the tribulation, that 1/10th of the city will fall, and 7000 people will die ( see Revelation 11:13 ). Christian scientists get revelation knowledge from God, while non-Christian scientists cannot. That makes all the difference. Look, if you refuse creation as evidence that God and His word are real, then there is no proof for you. Judgment day will be your proof, but by then, it will be too late, because you will be cast into the lake of fire for all eternity; the very one you don't believe exists. Your unbelief does not change the truth of God's word, it only prevents you from enjoying it.

Non-theist

Hi,

Well, to me it is more likely that those experiences you had were hallucinations.

I will quickly correct just one thing - I didn't say science denied earthquakes, I said science had a comprehensive understanding of how they happen and how they originated. The earth's crust was formed by cooling of the surface rocks. The crust then fractured due to convection currents in the mantle and other geological processes. This resulted in a fractured crust and is how tectonic plates originated. These collide or separate as the move on the mantle as described by basic geology. I sent a link to an old Nature article explaining this but you obviously didn't read it.

Let's just agree do disagree. I doubt the God you are describing exists, but if he does, I hope that he reveals himself to everyone so no one gets hurt.

Thanks anyway for corresponding. It was interesting albeit we were not able to reach a total consensus. Would you allow me to post the conversation in its entirety as a web page?

Best

Ernie

Do you hear what you say? You said to you I am hallucinating; but if it were you, then you would know it was real, and that Jesus is real and alive. Yes, I do pray God will open our eyes to Him, so I will know Him more, and you will know Him too. I don't like the idea of posting this as a web page, because you make yourself look wise ( which is just wise in your own eyes, or full of pride ), while attempting to make me look foolish. While others have done this, I didn't appreciate it then, and don't now. So please don't bother posting this as a web page, I believe we both know where each other stands. If you do ever have any questions about the bible, feel free to email me. I do enjoy these discussions, it is just sad that we can't see the truth over our beliefs.

Non-theist

No. You've m misunderstood my entire position. If I had a vision or an experience that seemed divine, my belief in its genuineness would depend firstly on the intensity of the experience. If I was completely 100% sure I wasn't dreaming and if I was lucid and still experienced it, and if I still experienced it several times while the rest of my life remained normal, that would be convincing. But much more importantly, I would only believe it if my experience was CORROBORATED in detail by OTHER PEOPLE. In other words other lucid, sane people there with me should have the same experience and agree with me on its details - then would I consider it a genuine divine experience. That was why I was asking you about the details of your experience of God, Jesus and angels. I am genuinely interested.

Now, I don't understand why you don't want to post it. Clearly, you think *I* am the fool. You said I was going to hell, said I was being wicked and limited in my life experience. If I was in your shoes, I would want more people to hear my message. Why on earth wouldn't you want more people to see our conversation if what you said to me is supposed to bring people to salvation from hell? Why don't you let people see how wrong I am and therefore strengthen *your* case? Honestly I just see it as a win-win situation for both of us - whatever we said in our conversation it will not close more a mind that's already closed and it will only enrich a mind that is already open. I can send you the file by email first so you can check you are okay with it and then you can make your mind up. And of course, it would be uncensored and in its entirety. But if you don't want to at all that's ok.

Cheers,

Ernie

No one on earth can validate my experiences, because they were mine and no one elses. Also, most people ( and all non-Christians ), are not going to believe or understand why God gives experiences to His children. Not everyone has the same experiences, and therefore they cannot be verified by others. The apostle Paul heard and saw the Lord Jesus on the road to Damascus, but the others only heard a voice, but saw no man ( Acts 9:7 ). The fact that I was awake and drug free proves to me Jesus and God are real. No one was with me that day. Same thing with the angels, because I went for a walk alone. All these experiences were drug free, and I was awake. That is the nature of real experiences and open visions, which is what Paul had in Acts. There are OBE's that are real too, but that involves the spirit and not the body of man. You walk by sight, and have to see to believe. I walk by faith, and believe what God has said. That is the difference between a Christian and all non-believers. You don't have faith in God, but will quickly believe science, even when it is just a theory. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal the truths of God, because neither science nor man without God can explain the things of God. If you only knew the reality of both heaven and hell. I pray you don't wait to see hell before you believe it is real, because it is a place of eternal torment, and you can never escape.

Heaven is real, and you can never imagine how wonderful and beautiful life can be, unless you go there. Whether you believe me or not, I sincerely hope you seek to know God before your time on this earth is over. It goes so quick: even if you live to be 100, how old is that compared even to 4 billion years, not to mention eternity? Let science define eternity for you if it can.

You want to know why I don't want it posted? Because all the atheists and others who believe in science will agree with your breakdown of each of my comments, instead of seeing the answers. How can it be a win-win situation, when I am talking about eternity in hell, and you are trying to disprove it with science? If I set up a blog, and picked your statements apart one by one, only Christians would see the truth. You just post links by other scientists that prove nothing but research, which cannot explain the bible, or disprove it. I am not here to prove the bible or God to you, God has to prove Himself to you, and I just show what He already said. You call this circular logic, which doesn't make sense to me. I could say what you present from other scientists to support each other is circular logic too, and never disproves the bible. What you reveal only causes non-Christians to be confused about the truth, seeing they are not born again, and cannot understand what God is saying. I am a teacher of the bible, not a scientist. You are a scientist, and not a teacher of the bible. I am teaching what the One who made the scientists says, and you are saying what the one made by God is saying. Which one is wiser?

You can send them to me to check out, but I didn't like it the first time I read it. If you dare, listen to the MP3 by Mary Baxter. She is no scientist, but a Christian who left her body and was taken to hell by Jesus. The sad thing is, many will hear this message and refuse to believe it, just like the ones explained in the vision. You be your own judge, but science can't help you decide this one. Here is the link.

http://spiritlessons.com/Mary_K_Baxter_A_Divine_Revelation_of_Hell.htm?gclid=CK_YmOGv6YsCFSAZIwodVHFpRQ

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